hasben
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Post by hasben on Jul 4, 2020 6:07:06 GMT -8
This is all unbelievably farfetched. If he tried it, Trump would fail. The American public wouldn't stand for it. What are they going to do? Post angry comments on Facebook?
I am only half-joking.
That's exactly right. There's absolutely nothing they could do. Have a parade and wave signs in DC to which rump would respond by having troops deployed to gas them. You see it over and over around the world on TV. I don't know why some think the US is totally immune from what has happened around the world. The quip that "we are better than that" is bs. There are millions of good people in every country that has been overcome by tyranny. They, like we have already largely done, let social justice slip through their fingers piece by piece until it was too late. Maybe they don't realize that we have already lost control of the presidency, the doj, the senate, the state dept, all agencies under the cabinet, and most of scotus. Do I really think he would try what Wirth described? I don't know but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on it. That's how important this election is and particularly in the senate.
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Post by Born2BBruin on Jul 4, 2020 8:01:00 GMT -8
Some very important considerations regarding this unlikely scenario; stipulating all Republican officials complicit in the undertaking are wholly craven and feckless, and everything proposed by the occurs: - Congress will meet on January 6, 2021 to count the Electoral College votes. The new 117th Congress will be sworn in on January 3rd. The current breakdown of state majorities in the House is Republicans 26 to Democrats 22. The GOP has a 2 seat advantage in Wisconsin and a 1 seat advantage in Florida. Michigan and Pennsylvania are tied. It's quite possible, especially in a wave election, that those four states flip Democratic. This would render the whole scenario completely moot.
- Both the House and Senate have sole constitutional power to determine the validity of the elections of their members, so a presidential questioning of election results would not prevent the House from seating a Democratic majority.
- In the article's proposed scenario, while the House chooses the President, the Senate chooses the Vice President. If the Democrats win control of the Senate, the VP could be Kamala Harris, or whoever ends up being Biden's running mate.
- No matter what happens, trump would be a president with no electoral legitimacy or popular mandate, faced with a Democratic House, and possibly a Democratic Senate and VP. He would have little to look forward to beyond two to four years of Congressional hearings, and perhaps multiple impeachments.
Now here is some speculation. Let's say trump does question the validity of the election based on fraud and/or foreign interference, and the state delegations to the House remain in Republican control. Speaker Pelosi would be well within her rights and power to say these are very serious charges and the House will delay counting the Electoral College votes until the Attorney General completes his investigation a reports back to Congress. If Barr doesn't report back to Congress by January 20th, or if Pelosi delays the conclusion of the hearings until that date; the office of President and Vice President become vacant, an Pelosi becomes President by constitutional succession. At which point, she fires Barr, or has him arrested, or both; declares the voter fraud scenario a sham and demands the Governors submit their state's electoral votes to Congress immediately. This next speculation is a little trickier, but no less so than the original. The Senate, as noted, has sole constitutional authority to determine the validity of the elections of its members. If the Senate is in Democratic control on January 3rd, and a House vote for trump appears imminent, the Senators could quite legally vote, based on the reports from the President, to question the election of 25 GOP Senators and temporarily suspend seating them pending investigation. With the Senate reduced to 75 voting members, 50 or more being Democrats, the House could vote to Impeach both trump and Pence, and the Senate could vote to remove them from office; with Pelosi once again rising to the Presidency. The point being, there's more than one way to skin a polecat.
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Post by blindness on Jul 4, 2020 11:00:38 GMT -8
The point is all these contingency plans need to be thoroughly vetted to make sure none of them assume norms, decency, honor, precedence, or good faith from any of the players. There needs to be a mechanical game plan to takes all of the most seemingly farfetched scenarios into account.
We are not dealing with anything even remotely normal here. That train left the station in 2015.
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Post by blindness on Jul 4, 2020 11:08:45 GMT -8
Now here is some speculation. Let's say trump does question the validity of the election based on fraud and/or foreign interference, and the state delegations to the House remain in Republican control. Speaker Pelosi would be well within her rights and power to say these are very serious charges and the House will delay counting the Electoral College votes until the Attorney General completes his investigation a reports back to Congress. If Barr doesn't report back to Congress by January 20th, or if Pelosi delays the conclusion of the hearings until that date; the office of President and Vice President become vacant, an Pelosi becomes President by constitutional succession. At which point, she fires Barr, or has him arrested, or both; declares the voter fraud scenario a sham and demands the Governors submit their state's electoral votes to Congress immediately. This development, by the way, may very well be the starting point of the second civil war. Not army against army, but neighbor against neighbor, city against city, county against county, state against state... with the side that's already heavily armed having the upper hand.
I am not kidding.
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Post by Born2BBruin on Jul 4, 2020 12:02:26 GMT -8
The point is all these contingency plans need to be thoroughly vetted to make sure none of them assume norms, decency, honor, precedence, or good faith from any of the players. There needs to be a mechanical game plan to takes all of the most seemingly farfetched scenarios into account. We are not dealing with anything even remotely normal here. That train left the station in 2015. I agree. While composing my previous post, I strongly considered writing or calling Pelosi's office, imploring her to develop exactly contingency plans for just such an occurrence.
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hasben
Resident Member
Posts: 1,023
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Post by hasben on Jul 4, 2020 12:30:32 GMT -8
The point is all these contingency plans need to be thoroughly vetted to make sure none of them assume norms, decency, honor, precedence, or good faith from any of the players. There needs to be a mechanical game plan to takes all of the most seemingly farfetched scenarios into account. We are not dealing with anything even remotely normal here. That train left the station in 2015. That is where most people fail to see the potential danger. Neither the doj nor the senate has followed the rule of law or the constitution for some time, and rump mocks both. born2bruin: the House will delay counting the Electoral College votes until the Attorney General completes his investigation a reports back to Congress And that's exactly where your first problem will start. Barr will 100% support whatever scheme rump comes up with legal or not. He will cheat, lie, cover-up, or just ignore legal procedure.
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Post by mhbruin on Jul 4, 2020 14:43:08 GMT -8
Except on Jan 20, his term end, no matter what the House does.
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Post by blindness on Jul 4, 2020 14:50:20 GMT -8
He will argue that on Jan 20th, his second term starts, regardless of what the results are.
Hence, civil war.
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Post by Born2BBruin on Jul 4, 2020 15:38:35 GMT -8
He will argue that on Jan 20th, his second term starts, regardless of what the results are. Hence, civil war. As I noted above, the trump stays in office scenario has many moving parts and requires a host of Republican elected officials to be wholly corrupt, craven and feckless. If you truly believe that, the civil war has already started.
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Post by blindness on Jul 4, 2020 16:09:05 GMT -8
He will argue that on Jan 20th, his second term starts, regardless of what the results are. Hence, civil war. As I noted above, the trump stays in office scenario has many moving parts and requires a host of Republican elected officials to be wholly corrupt, craven and feckless. If you truly believe that, the civil war has already started. I've heard our current state being referred to as a "cold civil war" . I don't think that's too far off the mark.
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hasben
Resident Member
Posts: 1,023
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Post by hasben on Jul 4, 2020 17:14:24 GMT -8
born2bbruin: Republican elected officials to be wholly corrupt, craven and feckless.
You don't think they've already demonstrated that in a myriad of ways?
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Post by Born2BBruin on Jul 4, 2020 18:20:09 GMT -8
born2bbruin: Republican elected officials to be wholly corrupt, craven and feckless. You don't think they've already demonstrated that in a myriad of ways? No. Not all of the officials that would be needed to pull that plot off.
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Post by blindness on Jul 4, 2020 18:26:13 GMT -8
born2bbruin: Republican elected officials to be wholly corrupt, craven and feckless. You don't think they've already demonstrated that in a myriad of ways? No. Not all of the officials that would be needed to pull that plot off. Just as long as we're not counting on their integrity. The republican machine works remarkably unison when push comes to shove.
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Post by bruinfan13 on Jul 4, 2020 21:30:47 GMT -8
Question- How does one know that one has been removed from the Roll? When I lived in LA I register there. Move to OC and re-register. Have not had to register since. Would a tip off be I do not receive my ballot by mail? I really don't think some one contacts you and says- you don't get to play anymore
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Post by blindness on Jul 4, 2020 21:42:38 GMT -8
Question- How does one know that one has been removed from the Roll? When I lived in LA I register there. Move to OC and re-register. Have not had to register since. Would a tip off be I do not receive my ballot by mail? I really don't think some one contacts you and says- you don't get to play anymore No, and that's the beauty of the scheme. Usually you couple that with a ban on same day registration and bingo. Now you get to chose who you want to vote in the election.
You know the saying: in democracies, the voters select their representatives, in our system the representatives select their voters. Nope, nothing weird about that!
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