hasben
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Posts: 1,047
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Post by hasben on Dec 8, 2021 10:10:39 GMT -8
more specifically effect election results? The jury seems to be out on the latter. There is no question that many of the new laws will make it more difficult for some voters to vote. Reducing the number of drop boxes, stiffer voter ID requirements, and changes to mail in ballot procedures will hamper some voters. But as usual the media has gone wild with allegations of stealing elections some of which are not true (though I don't doubt they would steal them if they could). For example some sources report that state legislatures will be able to overturn election results by overriding the popular vote and state election officials. Though gop politicians in several states have attempted to do exactly that none have been successful to date. There is no question that the gop is and has done everything they can to reduce the ability of the opposition to vote. How effective those efforts will be in the actual election is still the big question. I think this article from Politifact on the status of the key laws particularly in swing states is worth reading. www.politifact.com/article/2021/jul/14/are-state-legislators-really-seeking-power-overrul/ |
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Post by mhbruin on Dec 8, 2021 15:55:34 GMT -8
I am concerned about 3 things. 1) Reducing the number of polling places in minority neighborhoods. 2) Allowing legislatures to overturn results. 3) The number of election officials who are leaving the jobs to more partisan people.
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hasben
Resident Member
Posts: 1,047
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Post by hasben on Dec 8, 2021 17:11:06 GMT -8
I am concerned about 3 things. 1) Reducing the number of polling places in minority neighborhoods. 2) Allowing legislatures to overturn results. 3) The number of election officials who are leaving the jobs to more partisan people. I agree but as the article states no laws have passed that allow legislatures to overturn results. Your #'s 1 and 3 are big problems. |
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Post by sagobob on Dec 8, 2021 20:31:24 GMT -8
Destroy our faith in the fairness of our elections and you will destroy our democracy. Elements within the GOP want to rule rather than to govern. To accomplish that, they're trying to dissuade voters by making it harder to vote and casting doubt on the integrity of the election process.
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Post by blindness on Dec 9, 2021 10:01:52 GMT -8
I kinda understand the question, kinda don't. To me it's like asking whether you will be able to run the gauntlet to reach the other end. It depends. If all they are doing is hissing and booing, sure. If they are pushing and shoving along the way, very likely though it will take more effort. If they are kicking and punching hard you may be able to depending on how strong you are. If they are stabbing you and going after you with an axe, probably not.
I think what we had until this year was the pushing and shoving. Now they are kicking it up to kicking and punching. So in some states it will deter or reject enough people to win over narrower margins, in some states we will make it through but barely. Next time though, they will bring the knives.
Given how narrow the margins already are, and how much they have kicked up the game, I think the changes they have done will have a great impact. Last time we won by a slim margin. Lose that margin in a few states, the game is over. Which is what is very very likely to happen.
Note: I don't think we really had a deep faith in democracy to begin with. If we did, we would not have allowed the current system to stands as is for decades. As a nation, we do not understand what democracy is, how it works, and what kinds of structures need to be in place to achieve it. Our unshakable faith in an 18th century constitution to the point of fetishistic fixation is the root of the problem. The country will likely, collapse sooner than a lot of people can imagine because we refused to change and adapt. History is a harsh beast. It does not really make exceptions to its basic principles.
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Post by blindness on Dec 9, 2021 10:06:05 GMT -8
I am concerned about 3 things. 1) Reducing the number of polling places in minority neighborhoods. 2) Allowing legislatures to overturn results. 3) The number of election officials who are leaving the jobs to more partisan people. Well, that's been pretty much their game all along. Early voting, voting by mail, etc were all a work around for two things: (a) Tuesday voting (what kind of insanity is that?) and (b) atrocious number of voters/polling places ratio in especially in crowded, urban areas. |
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Post by sagobob on Dec 9, 2021 19:55:05 GMT -8
I kinda understand the question, kinda don't. To me it's like asking whether you will be able to run the gauntlet to reach the other end. It depends. If all they are doing is hissing and booing, sure. If they are pushing and shoving along the way, very likely though it will take more effort. If they are kicking and punching hard you may be able to depending on how strong you are. If they are stabbing you and going after you with an axe, probably not. I think what we had until this year was the pushing and shoving. Now they are kicking it up to kicking and punching. So in some states it will deter or reject enough people to win over narrower margins, in some states we will make it through but barely. Next time though, they will bring the knives. Given how narrow the margins already are, and how much they have kicked up the game, I think the changes they have done will have a great impact. Last time we won by a slim margin. Lose that margin in a few states, the game is over. Which is what is very very likely to happen. Note: I don't think we really had a deep faith in democracy to begin with. If we did, we would not have allowed the current system to stands as is for decades. As a nation, we do not understand what democracy is, how it works, and what kinds of structures need to be in place to achieve it. Our unshakable faith in an 18th century constitution to the point of fetishistic fixation is the root of the problem. The country will likely, collapse sooner than a lot of people can imagine because we refused to change and adapt. History is a harsh beast. It does not really make exceptions to its basic principles. Excellent analysis! Democracy depends upon keeping the faith in our institutions, even when some of our politicians conveniently misplace theirs. If our faith is shallow, then our institutions of government are at risk. I share your concerns, but hope that a transformational politician will emerge with a vision for the future. One that is fair and inclusive. But for that to happen, we first need to create a shared truth and a sense of purpose that transcends the individual. If we can't come together, then we will fall apart. |
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Post by blindness on Dec 10, 2021 12:06:58 GMT -8
It is really hard to restore faith in the institutions that continue to fail us not because of some bad apples leading those institutions, but because those institutions were designed for a very different world, and have no other choice, but to fail.
There can be no transformative politician or a transformative movement at this point. The system is built in a way to actively discard such people and squash such movements. This system is built to continue as is, not to transform itself. The only endgame I see here, and I am being 100% sincere as I say this, is this country will eventually collapse as the foundations continue to fray, and we will have new,m multiple political entities emerging from that wreckage, and hopefully some of those new entities will do things the right way, while others descend into deeper autocracy.
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Post by sagobob on Dec 10, 2021 14:37:55 GMT -8
It is really hard to restore faith in the institutions that continue to fail us not because of some bad apples leading those institutions, but because those institutions were designed for a very different world, and have no other choice, but to fail. There can be no transformative politician or a transformative movement at this point. The system is built in a way to actively discard such people and squash such movements. This system is built to continue as is, not to transform itself. The only endgame I see here, and I am being 100% sincere as I say this, is this country will eventually collapse as the foundations continue to fray, and we will have new,m multiple political entities emerging from that wreckage, and hopefully some of those new entities will do things the right way, while others descend into deeper autocracy. Ah, the Balkanization of America. That's really something to look forward to. All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put America back together again? Fortunately, I don't think that will happen in my lifetime, but it could. What kind of a system of government do you see emerging from the ashes of what once was the United States of America? |
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Post by blindness on Dec 10, 2021 15:08:40 GMT -8
I think it will be regional and it is anyone's guess.
Just for fun, I'll speculate a strong theocratic tendencies and centrist, nationalistic and autocratic single entity in the south. A highly bureaucratic, old fashioned union of states in the northeast that is an amalgamation of the old united states with a few English style National Health type additions. A confederation of loose states in the west that can never get on the same page to form a unified political entity.The midwest is a bit of a mystery to me. It may come down to an industrial belt from Pennsylvania to Michigan that is highly dysfuntional and ruled by corporations, and an agrarian region that includes Montana and Idaho that is nominally a democracy with an overton window firmly planted on the right of center (any liberal thought shunned as socialist, a term that means nothing more than "like Califiornia" at that point.
And then we go to war with one another because that's what new nations do to settle old scores
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Post by sagobob on Dec 10, 2021 16:36:37 GMT -8
I think it will be regional and it is anyone's guess. Just for fun, I'll speculate a strong theocratic tendencies and centrist, nationalistic and autocratic single entity in the south. A highly bureaucratic, old fashioned union of states in the northeast that is an amalgamation of the old united states with a few English style National Health type additions. A confederation of loose states in the west that can never get on the same page to form a unified political entity.The midwest is a bit of a mystery to me. It may come down to an industrial belt from Pennsylvania to Michigan that is highly dysfuntional and ruled by corporations, and an agrarian region that includes Montana and Idaho that is nominally a democracy with an overton window firmly planted on the right of center (any liberal thought shunned as socialist, a term that means nothing more than "like Califiornia" at that point. And then we go to war with one another because that's what new nations do to settle old scores So how do we divvy up the nukes? I would guess that the south would requisition a few. And how are those states who get more back in federal funds than they send to Washington gonna make up the difference? I live in Santa Barbara County. North county (Lompoc, Santa Maria, the Santa Ynez Valley, etc.) wanted to break away and form Mission County. They made a lot of noise about it until they found out that they were being subsidized by tax money from south county (Santa Barara, Montecito, Hope Ranch, etc.) and would have to raise taxes if they broke away. Dividing the economic pie could turn out to be a free for all. And even worse, it would so divide this country that providing for the common defense would become impossible and even worse how and by whom would currency exchange rates be set. By moving forward under the banner of the United States of America we would still stand a chance of surviving, otherwise we could be toast. |
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