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Post by blindness on Jun 25, 2020 7:58:00 GMT -8
T agree totally. They can push for them to be officially removed, but stop defacing and destroying, Don't give the other side an issue. The problem is that this has been tried and waiting patiently for a government often run by racists to remove them hasn't worked. I agree that we are now getting into irrational destruction territory but that is what happens when you compress something beyond its limits. I am aligned with this view more.
I don't feel I have the right to criticize this generation taking down the wrong monuments without first criticizing our generations for not taking the right ones down when it was our turn. We failed to take the lead. It's like letting your home become a huge mess, a pig sty if you will, and then getting mad your spouse for finally blowing a gasket, cleaning up the whole damn place and accidentally throwing some of your valuable stuff along the way.
We had our chance and we blew it.
That's what I think when I watch these kids blow through statues like a wildfire.
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Post by bruingray on Jun 27, 2020 16:14:02 GMT -8
I come down with Murat here, as the descendant of Confederate veterans (3 great-great-great uncles were hanged by Union troops in Texas for trying to steal cavalry horses) and at least one substantial slaveowner in Cincinnati, who employed about 30 slaves in a factory across the Ohio from Cincinnati, in Kentucky. Unusual slave work, but slave work nonetheless. My parents left Kentucky (Mom) and Texas (Dad) when they could, in large part because they couldn't stand the racism. My Dad lost a promotion because we hosted the only two black officers in the Pacific Fleet at the time at our government-provided home for dinners and barbecues with their families. He got a negative fitness report mark for that more than once, and losing that rank cost him a bundle on his pension.
I've tried to do a kind of bright line on the whole monumental statue thing (versus battlefield memorials, on which I am conflicted). The best one I have found is that we should not memorialize people who committed treason, meaning took up arms against the U.S. That would take out all of the Confederate leaders for sure. And we certainly have no statues of Benedict Arnold, who was a Revolutionary War hero before he wasn't. We certainly engaged in genocide against Native Americans, but we were not alone in that particular way of conquest through history. The Aztecs, the Mongols, various countries in religious wars have done it, and there are certainly statues all over Europe and Asia honoring people who did that. The Japanese did it in WWII, and their shrine to the fallen in WWII, Yasakuni, among others is still revered, despite international condemnation. We have people like Phil Sheridan, Union general and hero of the Civil War, Indian fighter who once declared "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," Custer, Jackson of course. Jackson is the toughest. He also took on the big financial interests of his day despite his loathsome personal attributes, and was somewhat important in the early building of our nation. He certainly never took up arms against it. But like most African and Native Americans, and a load of progressives, I utterly loathe the man. He is the toughest case in some ways. There are others. Andrew Johnson, James Buchanan, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson (Princeton is erasing his name now it seems, and he is one of their most recognized Presidents and alums).
But I have real trouble with Grant. Or Robert Gould Shaw, celebrated in the movie "Glory," the white Jewish abolitionist who led the all-black 54th Massachusetts and died with half his command or more at the battle of Fort Wagner. Defacing his statue has NOTHING to support it, but sheer vandalism as a motive. That's why the desecration is going too far, Murat's collateral damage argument notwithstanding. My main problem is that it will cost votes in November we can ill afford to lose.
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Post by blindness on Jun 27, 2020 16:51:27 GMT -8
It's a fever. It's going to break in a week or so. Like the looting. The underlying cause will remain though and it will probably be guided by cooler heads.
Not worried about that yet.
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