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Post by gainsborough on Mar 11, 2024 15:07:21 GMT -8
It will be very bad if Trump loses again. And it will be worse if he wins.
I think Trump has already broken the American experiment with democracy. Perhaps we can restore democracy if the voters choose Biden over Trump. But if Trump wins, I cannot see our country coming back from that, at least not in my lifetime.
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Post by mhbruin on Mar 12, 2024 14:05:31 GMT -8
It will be very bad if Trump loses again. And it will be worse if he wins. I think Trump has already broken the American experiment with democracy. Perhaps we can restore democracy if the voters choose Biden over Trump. But if Trump wins, I cannot see our country coming back from that, at least not in my lifetime. In the 1930's there were fairly large pro-Nazi and pro-Facsist movements. They were funded by rich men like Henry Ford, and promoted by anti-senitic priest Father Coughlin. There were armed militias and plots to overthrow the Roosevelt government. We have had severe limits on civil liberties during each world war and during the McCarthy Era. Somehow we came back from each of those. Past events are no guarantee of future events, but we have shown a lot of resiliance in the past, getting through many dank and dangerous times. We never had a potential President involved in some of this, although Woodrow Wilson did initiate a police state and essentially outlawed dissent. I am terrified of another Trump Presidency, and I would seriously look at emigrating. However, I am hopeful that we will find enough sense to not re-elect this clown and find a way back from the precipice
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Post by gainsborough on Mar 12, 2024 17:04:18 GMT -8
Agreed.
But my problem is not with Trump. We know what he is - devoid of virtue, he runs the table on sins. My main problem is the fact that so many people support him. IMO, they cannot possibly be so stupid as to support him on policy issues or on rational grounds. Instead, they flock to him for emotional reasons. They are not happy with their lives - they see the good life slipping away, they see other people living large, and they are full of resentment. They feel like losers. They align with Trump because he, like them, is full of resentment.
Even if Trump doesn't win, what kind of society do we have when so many people are full of resentment?
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hasben
Resident Member
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Post by hasben on Mar 13, 2024 6:58:23 GMT -8
"My main problem is the fact that so many people support him. IMO, they cannot possibly be so stupid as to support him on policy issues or on rational grounds."
Yes, sadly, they absolutely can be that stupid. Try talking to some of these people or listen to some of their interviews. They don't understand anything factual about the issues or the solutions. They also know nothing about economics, foreign policy, science, or much of anything else other than their job and family. They are intellectually weak and vulnerable to cult influence.
As mhb posted:
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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Post by mhbruin on Mar 13, 2024 8:32:09 GMT -8
Agreed. But my problem is not with Trump. We know what he is - devoid of virtue, he runs the table on sins. My main problem is the fact that so many people support him. IMO, they cannot possibly be so stupid as to support him on policy issues or on rational grounds. Instead, they flock to him for emotional reasons. They are not happy with their lives - they see the good life slipping away, they see other people living large, and they are full of resentment. They feel like losers. They align with Trump because he, like them, is full of resentment. Even if Trump doesn't win, what kind of society do we have when so many people are full of resentment? Unfortunately I see the whole mess as mostly white resentment. (Why some non-whites support him is a whole nothing issue.) And unfortunately, fear and hatred of "the other" has been part of human society as long as there has been history and probably as long as there have been people. We have goen through hatred of Native Americans, Irish, Italians, Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Muslims, Asians, and Eastern Europeans. I probably have left someone out. Of course, this is not an American problem. It is global. We don't hate Tutsis, but some folks do. My optimistic side says the American experiment has survived through two centuries of racism and hatred. My pessimistic side says we have only been this divided one other time in our history, and we had a civil war. There is no doubt, we are in a bad place right now.
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hasben
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Post by hasben on Mar 13, 2024 9:01:34 GMT -8
>My optimistic side says the American experiment has survived through two centuries of racism and hatred.
You are absolutely right about all the things you said but what was missing from all of those other equations was smart phones for dumb people. Social media, news feeds, fake posts, and fake web sites are the best brainwashing tools ever invented, and they give the mentally weak, easily influenced, angry autocrats, hostile fringe groups, and foreign adversaries the perfect medium to congregate and share destructive, anti-democratic information that results in elections that deconstruct America as we know it.
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Post by mhbruin on Mar 14, 2024 8:12:53 GMT -8
>My optimistic side says the American experiment has survived through two centuries of racism and hatred. You are absolutely right about all the things you said but what was missing from all of those other equations was smart phones for dumb people. Social media, news feeds, fake posts, and fake web sites are the best brainwashing tools ever invented, and they give the mentally weak, easily influenced, angry autocrats, hostile fringe groups, and foreign adversaries the perfect medium to congregate and share destructive, anti-democratic information that results in elections that deconstruct America as we know it. The technology is different, but we had highly partisan newspapers throughout our history spewing out fake news. People would gather and someone who could read would read them the "news". There has always been fake news. Admittedly, we have much "hotter" media these days, which are likely arouse more emotions. And the historical precedents don't calm my fear for the future of this country.
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hasben
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Post by hasben on Mar 14, 2024 8:52:59 GMT -8
The technology is different, but we had highly partisan newspapers throughout our history spewing out fake news. People would gather and someone who could read would read them the "news". There has always been fake news.
I think the point you may be missing that I was trying, maybe poorly to make, is that now all of these dissident factions soaking up the fake news can communicate instantly all over the country and organize into huge movements like maga. Fifty or even twenty-five years ago they were limited to local gatherings to communicate and strategize. This makes them much more dangerous and effective.
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Post by mhbruin on Mar 15, 2024 6:10:33 GMT -8
The technology is different, but we had highly partisan newspapers throughout our history spewing out fake news. People would gather and someone who could read would read them the "news". There has always been fake news. I think the point you may be missing that I was trying, maybe poorly to make, is that now all of these dissident factions soaking up the fake news can communicate instantly all over the country and organize into huge movements like maga. Fifty or even twenty-five years ago they were limited to local gatherings to communicate and strategize. This makes them much more dangerous and effective. An additional problem is the billionaires. The Tea Party movement, which became MAGA, would not been much without Koch and his friends pouring lots of money into helping organize them. There have always been rich people on the fringes trying to repeal the New Deal. With Koch they began an organized effort to take over the courts and state government.
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